Same picture from different folders

[VictorL]

Hi!
Was it planned or occurred accidentally if different pictures with same name is inserted as same picture only?
There're a many graphic folders for H&M project.
All these folders were added in Configuration - Project Search Path window.
There're a some different pictures with same name inside these folders.
When I open first folder and insert first picture - that's OK.
But when I open second folder and insert second picture (different picture that first one but with same name only) - first picture is inserted only but not second one.
<H&M GRAPHIC FOLDERS>
<folder first>
11.bmp
12.bmp (this picture is inserted as from first folder as from second always)
13.bmp
<folder second>
21.bmp
12.bmp (this pictures is replaced with same name picture from first folder)
33.bmp
Must the picture's name in H&M project be unique or something else?
P.S. For some reasons I need have pictures with same names I wrote above.

[VictorL]

As I see it depends upon what picture the user inserts firstly.
If the first folder's picture is inserted then the second folder's picture (with same name) is replaced with the first folder's picture... and vice versa
It turns out that the picture's name in H&M project folders must be unique.
Restrictions?

[Tim Green]

Hi Victor,

This is something that has already been discussed countless times on the forum. Please see this topic in the help:

Basic Working Procedures > Using Graphics > Managing your graphics

Here is the reason for why this works like this, once again:

This is caused by the way that H&M locates images: In your project only the image name is stored, without any path information. H&M finds the images by searching all the paths listed in your Project Search Path (in Project Explorer > Configuration > Common Properties) and using the FIRST image that it finds with a matching name. If you have multiple images with identical names in more than one folder H&M will only ever see the first image. This also applies to modular projects merged at publish time.

Images with identical names and different extensions are also affected. Images frequently need to be converted when you generate your output (for example, PDF can only understand BMP images, and BMP images can't be used in HTML-based formats) and this changes the extensions. If the image names are the same you will have a conflict across different output formats and may get different images in the same location in different formats because of it.

This has both an upside and a downside: The upside is that it makes your projects completely portable and enables you change the source and locations of your images very easily -- you just need to change the image locations in the Project Search Path. The downside is that you have to be careful to avoid images with identical names in the same project, including modular projects.

The only way to solve this problem is to make sure that you do not use duplicate image names, even if the files have different extensions.

[VictorL]

Hi!
Thanks, Tim!

...for example, PDF can only understand BMP images, and BMP images can't be used in HTML-based formats...

Tim, I asked that time before and knew I went right way.
I analyzed your test H&M project for CHM (there were the graphics BMP 256 only).
You advised me to use BMP 256 for PDF (OK I've done that)...
Now I knew something else to do more and more...
Maybe you give the recommendation for users in H&M help to have graphic formats for different output formats.
When I used DocBook the developers (although some tools were hand-made) recommended to use PNG always but sometimes with concrete Color Model and Resolution. Same to DITA.
I can't say different authors to use for PDF - BMP256 but for CHM - PNG because there're not in H&M documentation.
Maybe you give full list of graphics saying for EPUB, PDF, CHM etc.
You'll make a good thing to point the users a right way...

[Tim Green]

Victor,

Even though it sounds strange at first, the most flexible source format for your images is BMP. Since it is lossless you will generally get the best quality and Help & Manual can convert it to the necessary formats for all output formats without degradation. Also, you can save images in BMP with 256 colors and then set your HTML conversion to GIF for 256 colors and JPEG for True Color to gt the smallest possible files.

[Nicolas Wicke]

Tim,

With years of experience in image editing for documentation and such, I would rather recommend using PNG.
This format is lossless (equal in quality to BMP) but compressed (significantly smaller in size).
I have thusfar never experienced any downside in PNG in relation to BMP.
Plus, PNG provides transparency possibilities, whereas BMP does not (or extremely little).

Wouldn't you agree? Or am I overloooking certain issues, maybe specifically for H&M?

Best regards,
Nicolas

[VictorL]

Hi!
Thanks a lot.

Also, you can save images in BMP with 256 colors and then set your HTML conversion to GIF for 256 colors and JPEG for True Color to gt the smallest possible files.

I'd like you to make a format recommended bill but with note a user can insert every format picture as you like but not knowing this subject to do the documentation with large file size and bad quality pictures or something like that.
All I want is...
Example:
1. Format for corporative graphic's library (best quality to use them in every place the user need: presentation, video tutorials, marketing guides, adHOCs etc.) - saying, PNG-True Color 24 bit-Non-compressed. (best quality format having it we can convert it in every needed picture's format; exampling one time capture screenshot with PNG-True Color 24 bit-Non-compressed and after we can covert it in BMP256, PNG256 etc without capturing dialog again because the test data and field's order in dialog can be changed by the time... well done if it's possible).
2. Format for PDF - BMP-256-72 DPI.
3. Format for CHM - PNG-256-5-compressed or to switch the parameter Convert all bitmaps to PNG on.
4. Format for EPUB - ...
...
n. etc.
Tim, often the graphic's designer doesn't answer to select among pictures for the best final result working with H&M. The beginners can't choice the right way too. Every part of H&M's users tell only one: "Need to ask what the developers recommended".
Is it difficult to you to make this above exampling format bill to insert it in H&M help later?

Plus, PNG provides transparency possibilities, whereas BMP does not (or extremely little)

Thank you for an offer. I wondered why BMP if all developers to recommend PNG's usage.
I see PDF's engine works fine with BMP but what for different file formats?

[Tim Green]

Hi Nicolas,

Wouldn't you agree? Or am I overloooking certain issues, maybe specifically for H&M?

PNG is excellent as far as it goes but there are a couple of practical problems: First of all, it is not as ideal as a source format for conversion as BMP is. If you are only outputting to HTML-based formats using PNG directly is fine, because then it is passed directly to the output without conversion. If you are also generating PDFs then your PNGs get converted to BMP, which is unnecessary if BMP is your source format. The other way round, you don't lose anything when you convert BMP to PNG.

When you do convert BMP and other bitmaps to PNG there is one other problem: So long as your files are 256 colors or less, the PNG files will be fine, because indexed 256-color PNG is both high quality and compact. However, if your source files have more than 256 colors the resulting PNGs will be very large -- at least half as large as uncompressed BMPs and sometimes even larger, depending on the content. There are two ways to avoid this: Either store your True Color images directly in another format, like JPG or a more compact PNG crafted manually in a graphics program, or set your graphics conversion options in H&M to convert 256 colors to GIF and True Color to JPG. Unfortunately, H&M does not currently have an option for converting 256 colors to PNG and True Color to JPG, which would be a slightly better choice. But for most screenshots you will not be able to tell the difference between a 256-color GIF and a 256-color PNG, and the size difference will also be minimal.

[Tim Green]

Hi Victor,

I wondered why BMP if all developers to recommend PNG's usage.

You need to understand that when you choose BMP in Help & Manual you are not actually using BMP! It is only a source format that is almost always being converted into something else. BMP is ideal for this because it is uncompressed and can have the number of colors set in any way you like.

[VictorL]

When you do convert BMP and other bitmaps to PNG there is one other problem: So long as your files are 256 colors or less, the PNG files will be fine, because indexed 256-color PNG is both high quality and compact. However, if your source files have more than 256 colors the resulting PNGs will be very large -- at least half as large as uncompressed BMPs and sometimes even larger, depending on the content. There are two ways to avoid this: Either store your True Color images directly in another format, like JPG or a more compact PNG crafted manually in a graphics program, or set your graphics conversion options in H&M to convert 256 colors to GIF and True Color to JPG. Unfortunately, H&M does not currently have an option for converting 256 colors to PNG and True Color to JPG, which would be a slightly better choice. But for most screenshots you will not be able to tell the difference between a 256-color GIF and a 256-color PNG, and the size difference will also be minimal.

Tim, it's OK I use BMP but sometimes it goes next.
1. Capturing in BMP-True Color-312 DPI. This picture is stored like an original.
2. Then it saving as BMP-256-72 DPI.
3. BMP-256 is edited by IMPICT and inserting it in H&M project topics (for PDF).
For CHM BMP-256 is used with Convert to PNG option.
But you see to have the original picture in BMP-True Color-312 DPI is failed. Maybe capturing in PNG-True Color and then saving it as BMP-256?

You need to understand that when you choose BMP in Help & Manual you are not actually using BMP! It is only a source format that is almost always being converted into something else. BMP is ideal for this because it is uncompressed and can have the number of colors set in any way you like.

I don't say NO against BMP but I'd like the H&M developers to tell their users (specially as beginners) what is good and what is not good in graphic's usage.
I see you aren't going to make the RPFB (Recommended Picture's Format Bill) to add it in H&M help

[Tim Green]

Hi Victor,

The DPI setting is irrelevant. It has NO effect on the quality of the image. It is just a number in the header of the image, nothing else. You can change the DPI in any way you like, the number of pixels in the image and the image itself remain exactly the same. The only way the DPI number is used is that some programs will try to use it to say how many of the pixels in the image should be mapped to a one inch (1") size on the device where the image is going to be displayed -- for example on a printer. This is irrelevant in Help & Manual because it does not use the DPI number at all. It can store it if you want, but it does not use or reference it and it has NO effect on how the image looks or is displayed.

If you also want to use the original True Color image in some output formats you can do that: Just insert both images next to each other with conditional text tags to use one version in one output build and/or output format and one in another. This can't be done automatically, however.

I see you aren't going to make the RPFB (Recommended Picture's Format Bill) to add it in H&M help

This really isn't necessary, and would probably be counterproductive because it would make choosing images sound much more complicated than it is. Basically, there are just a few basic things you need to know:

• As a general rule, if you use BMP as your source format, you will get overall the greatest flexibility and the highest quality across all output formats.
• You need to combine this with appropriate conversion settings for HTML output. What you choose here depends on the type of images you are using and the number of colors they have. If you have almost all 256 color images just convert everything to PNG. Also, you only need to worry about any of this if you still care a lot about file size.
• Nowadays, file size is getting less and less important. If you do a lot of editing with Impict you can make life a lot easier for yourself by inserting Impict IPP images directly. These are always True Color, but they have editable layers, and they are also lossless so they have the same benefits as source images as BMP.
• When working with PDF you can get the greatest increase in image quality by inserting images that are much larger than you need and resizing them in the Help & Manual editor. Then the full sized image is exported to the PDF with a scaling command. This gives you much better quality when the PDF view is zoomed, and when the PDF is printed (because printers have high resolution and the larger image gives you more pixels per inch without having to mathematically scale the image).

[VictorL]

If you also want to use the original True Color image in some output formats you can do that: Just insert both images next to each other with conditional text tags to use one version in one output build and/or output format and one in another. This can't be done automatically, however.

As I see best of all if I make 3 basic formats I can do this:
1. Original - BMP-24 bit
2. PDF - BMP-256
3. CHM - PNG 256 without Convert to PNG
4. EPUB - as for PDF.
Used tags as <if PDF>BMP<if CHM>PNG<if EPUB>BMP</>etc.
Couldn't understand JPP usage... If user haven't IMPICT

This really isn't necessary...

Tim, you see I can't want to find a black cat in dark room and not to loose your important time...
it's strange to me that:
1. One hand - the developers don't restrict users to use any picture's format and I'm free to insert even TIFF ...
2. Other hand - as I ask you about many rules you to describe how to make documentation with this or that format for graphics...
What is complicated to combine that rules you told before in one table pointing at format only?
Please note: I don't want to loose your time and ask you more and more but if I ask again and again believe me that our designers, beginners and learners won't understand your recommendations because if that - make that etc. You tell flexible things but what to select for the best result?
I use BMP 256 but I'd like to open H&M's best result secret for the future generation's authors...
Sorry for that long discussion...

[VictorL]

Hi!

If you have almost all 256 color images just convert everything to PNG. Also, you only need to worry about any of this if you still care a lot about file size.

Tim, tested it but I couldn't find a difference
You mean if BMP converted to PNG for CHM it's worse then if PNG inserted for CHM without conversion?

Nowadays, file size is getting less and less important. If you do a lot of editing with Impict you can make life a lot easier for yourself by inserting Impict IPP images directly. These are always True Color, but they have editable layers, and they are also lossless so they have the same benefits as source images as BMP.

If IPP pictures use as original graphics what you say about next saving IPP in different formats? What quality and what loss? One detail everyone who works with it needing to have IMPICT editor.

When working with PDF you can get the greatest increase in image quality by inserting images that are much larger than you need and resizing them in the Help & Manual editor.

As remembered you showed me an example with very big True Color JPG photo inserting in topic with 50 % scale only... This time you wrote other thing or I caught wrong?

[VictorL]

Tim, all reflects fine!
Thanks, but I'd like you to look to your help back
Frankly speaking it's a very difficult to understand how graphics to use for better result.
But it's my opinion only if I'm wrong I'm very sorry.
But really for me and my colleges there needed to loose much time and patience to get the BEST result.
P.S. I looked among your customers Financial Times up. Knowing their refine and beautiful online publishing I think someone from its co-workers asked you too how to get best result... or not?

[Tim Green]

Hi Victor,

You mean if BMP converted to PNG for CHM it's worse then if PNG inserted for CHM without conversion?

Since the conversion that Help & Manual does is automatic you don't have any control over it, but since it is lossless you will generally not lose anything when saving a 256-color bitmap as a 256-color PNG. However, if you want to do manual fine-tuning of the colors -- for example mapping specific colors from a True Color image to a 256-color PNG image -- then you need to do that manually in a graphics program that includes that kind of control.

If IPP pictures use as original graphics what you say about next saving IPP in different formats? What quality and what loss? One detail everyone who works with it needing to have IMPICT editor.

IPP is lossless so saving it to other formats is the same as saving a BMP to other formats in Impict. The only thing to understand there is that in Impict you don't have advanced tools for mapping specific colors or groups of colors when you are saving a True Color image to an indexed color image with 256 or fewer colors. So if you want to do that with maximum you should use a graphics program that provides tools for that.