American English
Moderators: Alexander Halser, Tim Green
- Martin Wynne
- Posts: 2656
- Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 3:21 pm
- Location: West of the Severn, UK
American English
Hi,
I have just wasted an hour in email exchanges with a customer
in the USA before realising that the word "momentarily" for him
means "soon, very shortly, almost immediately", whereas for me
in the UK it means "lasting only briefly".
I already know the common ones, of course. e.g. "check the box"
which for him means "put a tick mark in the box" and for me means
"look in the box". Or "alternate" which for him means "alternative"
and for me means "swapping to and fro".
There's a mass of stuff on the web about British versus American
English, but I can't find anything giving advice on how to write program
Help notes which will be understood without ambiguity on both sides
of the pond. I need a list of words to avoid, with suggestions for
alternatives which have exactly the same meaning for all of us.
I'd be very grateful if anyone can point me to such a resource,
if any exists, or offer advice from their own experience.
Apologies if this is a common question and there is a well-known
resource which I ought to have found by now!
regards,
Martin.
I have just wasted an hour in email exchanges with a customer
in the USA before realising that the word "momentarily" for him
means "soon, very shortly, almost immediately", whereas for me
in the UK it means "lasting only briefly".
I already know the common ones, of course. e.g. "check the box"
which for him means "put a tick mark in the box" and for me means
"look in the box". Or "alternate" which for him means "alternative"
and for me means "swapping to and fro".
There's a mass of stuff on the web about British versus American
English, but I can't find anything giving advice on how to write program
Help notes which will be understood without ambiguity on both sides
of the pond. I need a list of words to avoid, with suggestions for
alternatives which have exactly the same meaning for all of us.
I'd be very grateful if anyone can point me to such a resource,
if any exists, or offer advice from their own experience.
Apologies if this is a common question and there is a well-known
resource which I ought to have found by now!
regards,
Martin.
-
- Posts: 338
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 1:32 am
- Location: Australia
Martin,
hmmm - To me all are valid assumptions and probably many other countries would not have a problem. We would see it as an issue of context not meaning.
Do not know of any sites out there that suggest a way to write a help file to avoid the problem. I would suggest that you keep a list of words to avoid.
I also did not know this and will have to recheck my help file.
Regards
John
hmmm - To me all are valid assumptions and probably many other countries would not have a problem. We would see it as an issue of context not meaning.
Do not know of any sites out there that suggest a way to write a help file to avoid the problem. I would suggest that you keep a list of words to avoid.
I also did not know this and will have to recheck my help file.
Regards
John
American English
Yep, this American-British difference might be tricky sometimes
The question is: which is preferrable - American English or British English?
The question is: which is preferrable - American English or British English?
- Tim Green
- Site Admin
- Posts: 23189
- Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:11 am
- Location: Bruehl, Germany
- Contact:
Eugene,
It's a difficult question. I generally use British English for Europe and Asia and American English when the majority of the users will be in North America. On the other hand, American English is also slowly becoming standard on the Internet and for software in general, so it's hard to say. I try to use American English here on the forum, for example, although I sometimes forget myself...
It's a difficult question. I generally use British English for Europe and Asia and American English when the majority of the users will be in North America. On the other hand, American English is also slowly becoming standard on the Internet and for software in general, so it's hard to say. I try to use American English here on the forum, for example, although I sometimes forget myself...
Regards,
Tim (EC Software Documentation & User Support)
Private support:
Please do not email or PM me with private support requests -- post to the forum directly.
Tim (EC Software Documentation & User Support)
Private support:
Please do not email or PM me with private support requests -- post to the forum directly.
-
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2002 7:45 pm
- Location: New Orleans, LA USA
I just noticed that this is one of two threads in this forum with the same title, "American English." ;^)
My observation is that American English is, by default, becoming the international language. Of course, I'm prejudiced by my own vantage point as an American writing almost exclusively for other Americans. Let me stress that I'm not arguing that this is necessarily a good thing ~ just a fact of life. The fact that most Americans are ignorant of other languages is probably a major contributing factor, along with the USA's dominance in the world high-tech economy (which may not last forever, but that's another discussion entirely...).
Tim's perspective as an expatriate American in Europe is obviously different from* mine. Since his viewpoint is by definition more cosmopolitan, he might be more correct than I, but maybe not. I might suggest that his feeling that British usage might be more appropriate in the international context could be somewhat exaggerated, since he might tend towards hyper-awareness of any and every appearance of non-American usage.
*Note that I don't use the British "different to." English textbooks in the US tell us that "different from" is the only correct usage. I find this amusing, since "from"and "to" are opposites. In colloquial, verbal usage, many Americans use a third alternative, "different than," which the schoolbooks have always told us is incorrect, but which "feels" appropriate to many common folk in America. I wonder if other English speakers (Aussies, New Zealanders, Scots, Irish, even the English themselves) ever say "different than" in common speech, in defiance of the grammar books...
My observation is that American English is, by default, becoming the international language. Of course, I'm prejudiced by my own vantage point as an American writing almost exclusively for other Americans. Let me stress that I'm not arguing that this is necessarily a good thing ~ just a fact of life. The fact that most Americans are ignorant of other languages is probably a major contributing factor, along with the USA's dominance in the world high-tech economy (which may not last forever, but that's another discussion entirely...).
Tim's perspective as an expatriate American in Europe is obviously different from* mine. Since his viewpoint is by definition more cosmopolitan, he might be more correct than I, but maybe not. I might suggest that his feeling that British usage might be more appropriate in the international context could be somewhat exaggerated, since he might tend towards hyper-awareness of any and every appearance of non-American usage.
*Note that I don't use the British "different to." English textbooks in the US tell us that "different from" is the only correct usage. I find this amusing, since "from"and "to" are opposites. In colloquial, verbal usage, many Americans use a third alternative, "different than," which the schoolbooks have always told us is incorrect, but which "feels" appropriate to many common folk in America. I wonder if other English speakers (Aussies, New Zealanders, Scots, Irish, even the English themselves) ever say "different than" in common speech, in defiance of the grammar books...
Tom Henehan
CompuVend, Inc.
Makers of DEX Buzz Box®
3322 Hessmer Avenue, Suite 201
Metairie, LA 70002
CompuVend, Inc.
Makers of DEX Buzz Box®
3322 Hessmer Avenue, Suite 201
Metairie, LA 70002
- Martin Wynne
- Posts: 2656
- Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 3:21 pm
- Location: West of the Severn, UK
Hi Tom,TomHenehan wrote:I wonder if other English speakers (Aussies, New Zealanders, Scots, Irish, even the English themselves) ever say "different than" in common speech.
"Different than" is never heard here in the UK. "Different to" is very common, but only "different from" is strictly correct.
The one which makes my hair stand on end is your "fill out a form". Here in the UK for years we filled forms IN, but now we are frequently being asked to fill them OUT. I always refuse, saying it is impossible. I can fill things in, or I can empty them out, but I can't do both at once!
Martin.
Last edited by Martin Wynne on Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2002 7:45 pm
- Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Hah!
I've encountered very widespread use of "different to" among Brits chatting on the Internet. My brother, who lives in England, tells me sees and hears this usage (very unfamiliar and inconguous to us) all the time. Naturaly, we both assumed that it was one of those instances where the rule differs on either side of the pond.
I find it interesting that "different from" is deemed correct in both our countries, but that native speakers generally rebel by adopting two distinctly different incorrect/informal alternatives. "Different than" is so common here in the US that elementary-school textbooks specifically mention it (just as they never fail to mention the dreaded contraction "ain't" as a leading linguistic bugaboo).
I've encountered very widespread use of "different to" among Brits chatting on the Internet. My brother, who lives in England, tells me sees and hears this usage (very unfamiliar and inconguous to us) all the time. Naturaly, we both assumed that it was one of those instances where the rule differs on either side of the pond.
I find it interesting that "different from" is deemed correct in both our countries, but that native speakers generally rebel by adopting two distinctly different incorrect/informal alternatives. "Different than" is so common here in the US that elementary-school textbooks specifically mention it (just as they never fail to mention the dreaded contraction "ain't" as a leading linguistic bugaboo).
Tom Henehan
CompuVend, Inc.
Makers of DEX Buzz Box®
3322 Hessmer Avenue, Suite 201
Metairie, LA 70002
CompuVend, Inc.
Makers of DEX Buzz Box®
3322 Hessmer Avenue, Suite 201
Metairie, LA 70002
(Quote from Dick Cavett)
When the flight attendant would say, “We will be landing in Chicago momentarily,” I used to enjoy replying, “Will there be time to get off?”
http://cavett.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/02 ... /#comments
When the flight attendant would say, “We will be landing in Chicago momentarily,” I used to enjoy replying, “Will there be time to get off?”
http://cavett.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/02 ... /#comments
-
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:29 pm
- Location: London, UK
I'm not so sure. When I searched the UK open government website (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/index.htm) today I found 24 references to ‘fill out’ and 148 references to ‘fill in’. The Oxford University site (http://www.oxford.ac.uk) has 768 references to ‘fill out’ and 1000 references to ‘fill in’. Almost all of these are references to forms, questionnaires or surveys.Martin Wynne, Tue Jan 30, 2007 wrote:The one which makes my hair stand on end is your "fill out a form". Here in the UK for years we filled forms IN, but now we are frequently being asked to fill them OUT.
According to the OED you 'fill in' a vacancy, you 'fill out' when you want to enrich something, and you 'fill up' when you fill something to completion ...which is what most forms require. I felt impelled to write to the Oxford English Dictionary Word and Language Service for clarification. Honestly , I have. More news if/when I receive it....
Simon
- Martin Wynne
- Posts: 2656
- Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 3:21 pm
- Location: West of the Severn, UK
Hi Simon,Simon Dismore wrote:When I searched the UK open government website (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/index.htm) today I found 24 references to ‘fill out’ and 148 references to ‘fill in’.
I find that surprising. It would be interesting to have the publication dates -- I guess most of the "ins" would be older and the "outs" more recent.
It is the illogicality which makes these changes so irritating. Another one we have to get used to now is "attendee" for a visitor or someone taking part in something. An attendee is someone to whom attention is paid. The person doing the attending is an attender (employer-employee, referrer-referree).
I know language has always been illogical, but that's no reason to make it more so. The classic example is "head over heels" meaning upside down, when head above heels is the normal condition -- upside down would be heels over head.
grrr!
Martin.
-
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:29 pm
- Location: London, UK
I tried putting a date range in via the advanced search page http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/AdvancedSearch/index.htm. Almost all the results either way are dated within the past 6 months.Martin Wynne wrote:It would be interesting to have the publication dates -- I guess most of the "ins" would be older and the "outs" more recent.
I expect the 'attendee' problem follows from the idea that those who attend are 'invitees'?
Simon
-
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:29 pm
- Location: London, UK
Hi Martin
I received a reply from Oxford University Press this morning (see the scan below).
They also enclosed a copy of the relevant page in the 2005 edition of the OED, which says:
fill something in chiefly Brit. add information to complete a form or other official document...
fill something out chiefly N.Amer. add information to complete a form or other official document...
So you are quite right. I suppose the only safe compromise is "complete".
Simon
I received a reply from Oxford University Press this morning (see the scan below).
They also enclosed a copy of the relevant page in the 2005 edition of the OED, which says:
fill something in chiefly Brit. add information to complete a form or other official document...
fill something out chiefly N.Amer. add information to complete a form or other official document...
So you are quite right. I suppose the only safe compromise is "complete".
Simon
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
In no way I am a native speaker, but I'd like to share an interesting comment on this issue from a true-born and literate native American speaker.
In his words, to fill out a form is to make the form complete, whereas to fill in a form describes the process of completing the form.
In other words, You fill out a form by filling it in.
In his words, to fill out a form is to make the form complete, whereas to fill in a form describes the process of completing the form.
In other words, You fill out a form by filling it in.
-
- Posts: 163
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:58 pm
The buses I used to use in Cambridge (UK) had the maximum numbers of passengers permitted on a notice near the driver. I forget the exact phrasing but the notice said:Martin Wynne wrote:Another one we have to get used to now is "attendee" for a visitor or someone taking part in something. An attendee is someone to whom attention is paid. The person doing the attending is an attender (employer-employee, referrer-referree).
Maximum permitted passengers: 42 seated, 22 standees.