Non-Responsive V3 skins?
Moderators: Alexander Halser, Tim Green
- Martin Wynne
- Posts: 2656
- Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 3:21 pm
- Location: West of the Severn, UK
Non-Responsive V3 skins?
Hi Tim,
Are there any PP V3 skins without the responsive functions?
I want to use V3 to get the latest HM7 functionality -- embedding, field pop-ups, URL switches, no browser caching, etc.
But I don't want the responsive auto-sizing, which is making a complete mess of my existing content. The vast majority of my users want to view my Webhelp on a traditional desktop/laptop computer using Windows/Firefox. With the responsive skins, font sizes are now all over the place, and images which were previously crisp CAD line graphics displayed at the pixel sizes specified by me, are now shown adjusted by some small amount, such as 104%, which is neither here nor there for viewing, but just enough to make them fuzzy instead of crisp.
I know my eyes seem to be different from everyone else's, but I simply cannot view fuzzy graphics without getting a blinding headache. If an image contains a crisp 1-pixel line, that is how it MUST be displayed. I'm not prepared to accept any other option for my Webhelp. I have managed to achieve this for videos by using the excellent FBR format in GDI mode, and I had hoped that using PNG format would always deliver the same for static images. Which up until now it has done.
I'm sorry to sound ratty about this, but it really is important for me. If I create an image 720 pixels wide, that is how I want it to be displayed on all devices at all times. Even if on a 16K display it turns out to be the size of a postage stamp. Or needs scrolling on a mobile phone. If the user is not happy with that, all devices have some means to zoom the display as the individual user requires.
regards,
Martin.
Are there any PP V3 skins without the responsive functions?
I want to use V3 to get the latest HM7 functionality -- embedding, field pop-ups, URL switches, no browser caching, etc.
But I don't want the responsive auto-sizing, which is making a complete mess of my existing content. The vast majority of my users want to view my Webhelp on a traditional desktop/laptop computer using Windows/Firefox. With the responsive skins, font sizes are now all over the place, and images which were previously crisp CAD line graphics displayed at the pixel sizes specified by me, are now shown adjusted by some small amount, such as 104%, which is neither here nor there for viewing, but just enough to make them fuzzy instead of crisp.
I know my eyes seem to be different from everyone else's, but I simply cannot view fuzzy graphics without getting a blinding headache. If an image contains a crisp 1-pixel line, that is how it MUST be displayed. I'm not prepared to accept any other option for my Webhelp. I have managed to achieve this for videos by using the excellent FBR format in GDI mode, and I had hoped that using PNG format would always deliver the same for static images. Which up until now it has done.
I'm sorry to sound ratty about this, but it really is important for me. If I create an image 720 pixels wide, that is how I want it to be displayed on all devices at all times. Even if on a 16K display it turns out to be the size of a postage stamp. Or needs scrolling on a mobile phone. If the user is not happy with that, all devices have some means to zoom the display as the individual user requires.
regards,
Martin.
- Tim Green
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Re: Non-Responsive V3 skins?
Hi Martin,
The responsive skins are all responsive. However, your issues are easy to correct: The images going over native size is happening because Help & Manual was defining the max-width in rems, which is obviously self-defeating, because it is a relative value that will almost never be exactly the native width. This has been changed to pixels in HM 7.1. You then just need to set your image dimensions to % of page width maximum is native width, with the percentage set high enough so that you get the native width on reasonably-dimensioned desktop browser windows. You can get the current beta to try this out here.
Your font issues may be in things like lists, where you may be getting smaller fonts than defined in the body text paragraphs defined with the same styles. This is caused by the way HM is currently handling style names and font sizes in lists, but here too there is an easy fix. Open the skin in PP Toolbox, click on the HTML Options button and change the Font Base Size from 92 to 100. This will prevent these relative size glitches from happening until HM changes the style references that are actually causing the problem.
All this being said, if you are really targeting desktop users then why not use the WebHelp/EWriter skins? I am still maintaining and supporting them for exactly this purpose, and they now also work nicely on tablets.
The responsive skins are all responsive. However, your issues are easy to correct: The images going over native size is happening because Help & Manual was defining the max-width in rems, which is obviously self-defeating, because it is a relative value that will almost never be exactly the native width. This has been changed to pixels in HM 7.1. You then just need to set your image dimensions to % of page width maximum is native width, with the percentage set high enough so that you get the native width on reasonably-dimensioned desktop browser windows. You can get the current beta to try this out here.
Your font issues may be in things like lists, where you may be getting smaller fonts than defined in the body text paragraphs defined with the same styles. This is caused by the way HM is currently handling style names and font sizes in lists, but here too there is an easy fix. Open the skin in PP Toolbox, click on the HTML Options button and change the Font Base Size from 92 to 100. This will prevent these relative size glitches from happening until HM changes the style references that are actually causing the problem.
All this being said, if you are really targeting desktop users then why not use the WebHelp/EWriter skins? I am still maintaining and supporting them for exactly this purpose, and they now also work nicely on tablets.
Regards,
Tim (EC Software Documentation & User Support)
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Tim (EC Software Documentation & User Support)
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- Martin Wynne
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- Location: West of the Severn, UK
Re: Non-Responsive V3 skins?
Hi Tim,
Many thanks. I downloaded the beta and we are making progress.
If I set the image properties to "% of page width, maximum is physical size" option I get:
All other options in the image properties produce:
Which is no help at all.
The first option is fine to prevent the browser zooming the image up, but doesn't prevent it being zoomed down on narrow screens. I want it to stay actual size, and for the horizontal scrollbar to appear.
What I really want of course, is no css image size data at all. The browser then uses the actual loaded px size by default.
However, I have got the same result by adding this script at the bottom of the page:
So three cheers for that!
So now how do I change every image in my project to the "% of page width, maximum is physical size" setting, without doing every one individually? I can't globally edit the XML topic files because the images are not all the same size.
And what confidence can I have that this won't all change again in a future beta/upgrade/version of H&M? An obvious solution would be a "No image sizing whatsoever" option in the image properties. Can we add that to the Wish List?
Thanks again,
Martin.
Many thanks. I downloaded the beta and we are making progress.
If I set the image properties to "% of page width, maximum is physical size" option I get:
Code: Select all
<img style="width:100%;max-width:746px;height:auto;
Code: Select all
<img style="margin:0;width:50.6793rem;height:62.5000rem;
The first option is fine to prevent the browser zooming the image up, but doesn't prevent it being zoomed down on narrow screens. I want it to stay actual size, and for the horizontal scrollbar to appear.
What I really want of course, is no css image size data at all. The browser then uses the actual loaded px size by default.
However, I have got the same result by adding this script at the bottom of the page:
Code: Select all
<script type="text/javascript">
var nnn;
var xyz = document.getElementsByTagName('img');
for(nnn=0; nnn<xyz.length; nnn++)
{
xyz[nnn].style.width = xyz[nnn].style.maxWidth;
}
</script>
So now how do I change every image in my project to the "% of page width, maximum is physical size" setting, without doing every one individually? I can't globally edit the XML topic files because the images are not all the same size.
And what confidence can I have that this won't all change again in a future beta/upgrade/version of H&M? An obvious solution would be a "No image sizing whatsoever" option in the image properties. Can we add that to the Wish List?
I will try that, but with V2 do I still get the field pop-ups and embedded Help options? I really like the new functions in V3, it is just the dreaded responsive image auto-sizing which I can't accept. The font re-sizing is fine.Tim Green wrote:All this being said, if you are really targeting desktop users then why not use the WebHelp/EWriter skins? I am still maintaining and supporting them for exactly this purpose, and they now also work nicely on tablets.
OK, I give up. Where do I find PP Toolbox? I have been editing the PP skin settings in the main editor.Tim Green wrote:Open the skin in PP Toolbox
Thanks again,
Martin.
- Martin Wynne
- Posts: 2656
- Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 3:21 pm
- Location: West of the Severn, UK
Re: Non-Responsive V3 skins?
p.s. Tim,
I have now found hmToolbox.exe in the Windows programs folder. I have never seen that before. Is there a link somewhere in H&M that I've been missing for years?
I have now found "Configuring with PP Toolbox" in the CHM file, but it is not in the online Help at: http://help.ec-software.com/ (which is what I normally use).
Is it OK to have the skin open in the Toolbox and H&M at the same time? I suspect not.
regards,
Martin.
I have now found hmToolbox.exe in the Windows programs folder. I have never seen that before. Is there a link somewhere in H&M that I've been missing for years?
I have now found "Configuring with PP Toolbox" in the CHM file, but it is not in the online Help at: http://help.ec-software.com/ (which is what I normally use).
Is it OK to have the skin open in the Toolbox and H&M at the same time? I suspect not.
regards,
Martin.
- Tim Green
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Re: Non-Responsive V3 skins?
Hi Martin,
Sorry, the embedded help and field-level stuff is only possible with the new WebHelp 3 format.
On the image dimensions: This isn't related to the skins directly, it comes from using relative dimensioning (rems), which needs to be applied to everything if you are using it. Otherwise you will have elements that won't adjust correctly when the page size adjusts. I do understand why you're kicking and screaming, but explicit dimensions are going to disappear in the same way as acoustic coupler modems. There are disadvantages associated with relative dimensions, but there is no stopping them.
If you want to change your images to the new setting globally it's actually easier than you might think. You just need to change the scale="100%" setting to scale="-99.90%". You don't need to add the dimensions -- HM will do that automatically and you don't need to view the changed topics before publishing. It will work right away.
I've attached a PP Toolbox Regex search profile with which you can do this. Load your project in PP Toolbox (make a backup first) and then choose Complex Find & Replace in Topics in the Tools menu and load the attached profile. Then just run it, with a preview first if you prefer.
Sorry, the embedded help and field-level stuff is only possible with the new WebHelp 3 format.
You're missing out on a lot by not using it. It's covered in detail in the Help & Manual Premium Pack chapter in the main HM help, which is updated when you install the PP. You can find the option to start it in the Help & Manual program item in your start menu after installing, and the EXE is called HmToolbox.exe, in the HM program directory. But please do check the help before using it.OK, I give up. Where do I find PP Toolbox? I have been editing the PP skin settings in the main editor.
On the image dimensions: This isn't related to the skins directly, it comes from using relative dimensioning (rems), which needs to be applied to everything if you are using it. Otherwise you will have elements that won't adjust correctly when the page size adjusts. I do understand why you're kicking and screaming, but explicit dimensions are going to disappear in the same way as acoustic coupler modems. There are disadvantages associated with relative dimensions, but there is no stopping them.
If you want to change your images to the new setting globally it's actually easier than you might think. You just need to change the scale="100%" setting to scale="-99.90%". You don't need to add the dimensions -- HM will do that automatically and you don't need to view the changed topics before publishing. It will work right away.
I've attached a PP Toolbox Regex search profile with which you can do this. Load your project in PP Toolbox (make a backup first) and then choose Complex Find & Replace in Topics in the Tools menu and load the attached profile. Then just run it, with a preview first if you prefer.
No, it's part of Premium Pack 3.I have now found hmToolbox.exe in the Windows programs folder. I have never seen that before. Is there a link somewhere in H&M that I've been missing for years?
Well, no, because the Premium Pack isn't included with the standard build of Help & Manual...I have now found "Configuring with PP Toolbox" in the CHM file, but it is not in the online Help at: http://help.ec-software.com/ (which is what I normally use).
No! If the skin is already open in HM Toolbox won't open it because HM opens it exclusively. However, if you do it the other way round it will be possible, because Toolbox must not open it exclusively, because of all the interactive file monitoring it needs to do to extract and reinsert templates and baggage files so that you can edit them. But then you won't be able to save with Toolbox. You really, really, really should not do that.Is it OK to have the skin open in the Toolbox and H&M at the same time? I suspect not.
This would have to be a new setting in Help & Manual to override the responsive setting even when relative dimensions are set for HTML export. I'll discuss this with Alexander but I don't hold out much hope because it doesn't really make sense in the long run. As soon as high-resolution displays become the general standard it won't be a problem any more -- it is only now in the transitional period that it is still an issue.What I really want of course, is no css image size data at all. The browser then uses the actual loaded px size by default.
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Regards,
Tim (EC Software Documentation & User Support)
Private support:
Please do not email or PM me with private support requests -- post to the forum directly.
Tim (EC Software Documentation & User Support)
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- Martin Wynne
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- Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 3:21 pm
- Location: West of the Severn, UK
Re: Non-Responsive V3 skins?
Thanks Tim,
Yes, I have now found the Toolbox and have been testing it. Very handy!
The reason I have not discovered it before is that I never go near CHMs if I can possibly help it. I do think it would be better to provide a proper Webhelp with the Premium Packs, or maybe EWriter help.
If that means making several versions of each image, and separate builds for hi-res screens and mobile devices, so be it.
A possible alternative would be to abandon screen captures and get my application to create its own graphics as vector metafiles (which zoom cleanly without going fuzzy). The original Windows EMF format is extremely handy, and I have been making much use of it recently. It's a shame that Microsoft appear to have almost abandoned it in favour of PDF/XPS files. Unfortunately browser support for EMF images appears to be very patchy.
Thanks for your help,
Martin.
Yes, I have now found the Toolbox and have been testing it. Very handy!
The reason I have not discovered it before is that I never go near CHMs if I can possibly help it. I do think it would be better to provide a proper Webhelp with the Premium Packs, or maybe EWriter help.
Not in my Help they are not. If I have to write 10 pages of javascript and insert every image as an HTML object, images are going to be displayed at the size I create them.Tim Green wrote:I do understand why you're kicking and screaming, but explicit dimensions are going to disappear in the same way as acoustic coupler modems.
If that means making several versions of each image, and separate builds for hi-res screens and mobile devices, so be it.
A possible alternative would be to abandon screen captures and get my application to create its own graphics as vector metafiles (which zoom cleanly without going fuzzy). The original Windows EMF format is extremely handy, and I have been making much use of it recently. It's a shame that Microsoft appear to have almost abandoned it in favour of PDF/XPS files. Unfortunately browser support for EMF images appears to be very patchy.
Thanks for your help,
Martin.
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Re: Non-Responsive V3 skins?
Hi Martin, have you tried converting EMF to SVG? You can do this by importing into Inkscape (which is free) and then saving as SVG. The files I've tried seem to open fine in Help and Manual 7 (apart from some pain with recording the image size correctly, which is potentially an issue if you want to size the image as a percentage <100% of responsive page width).Martin Wynne wrote:Unfortunately browser support for EMF images appears to be very patchy.
I compiled to webhelp using V3 Responsive Skins\Minimalist Standard and it looked good to me. I also tried round-tripping a twenty-year-old WMF. Inkscape exported that perfectly too. Illustrator didn't recognize the width of fine strokes. So Inkscape is probably the way to test, at least to begin with.
I was able to make a conversion work from the command line as follows:
Code: Select all
"C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\inkscape.exe" -f mysource.wmf -l myplainexport.svg
- Martin Wynne
- Posts: 2656
- Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 3:21 pm
- Location: West of the Severn, UK
Re: Non-Responsive V3 skins?
Hi Simon,Simon Dismore wrote:Hi Martin, have you tried converting EMF to SVG?
I have now.
Brilliant! The SVG image scales up and down in Firefox perfectly, even from a 600dpi EMF.
Many thanks for that. I didn't know Inkscape was available for Windows -- I do have a copy on my Linux system. Normally I would use GIMP, but this looks a lot better.
There seem to be 3 options for SVG format, so now off to learn a bit more and try the effects in H&M.
Many thanks again,
Martin.
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Re: Non-Responsive V3 skins?
There's PP3 Webhelp at http://www.it-authoring.com/info/pp3help/index.html.Martin Wynne wrote:it would be better to provide a proper Webhelp with the Premium Packs
- Martin Wynne
- Posts: 2656
- Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 3:21 pm
- Location: West of the Severn, UK
Re: Non-Responsive V3 skins?
Many thanks Simon. Where did you find the link for that?Simon Dismore wrote:There's PP3 Webhelp at http://www.it-authoring.com/info/pp3help/index.html.
But it does appear to be for PP 3.02, and we are now on PP 3.10
And now with an HM7 beta, we seem to be in a permanent state of flux. I'm fearful of doing a lot of work which will be affected by subsequent changes.
regards,
Martin.
- Tim Green
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Re: Non-Responsive V3 skins?
Hi Martin,
That was just a quick demo I put online for someone on the forum who asked for it. It's not really official and I don't think I'm going to maintain it. The official help is the CHM included with Help & Manual.But it does appear to be for PP 3.02, and we are now on PP 3.10
Alex has confirmed that an option for non-responsive images in responsive layouts will definitely never be implemented, so you don't need to hold your breath for that. What else were you concerned about?And now with an HM7 beta, we seem to be in a permanent state of flux. I'm fearful of doing a lot of work which will be affected by subsequent changes.
Regards,
Tim (EC Software Documentation & User Support)
Private support:
Please do not email or PM me with private support requests -- post to the forum directly.
Tim (EC Software Documentation & User Support)
Private support:
Please do not email or PM me with private support requests -- post to the forum directly.
- Martin Wynne
- Posts: 2656
- Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 3:21 pm
- Location: West of the Severn, UK
Re: Non-Responsive V3 skins?
Hi Tim,Tim Green wrote:Alex has confirmed that an option for non-responsive images in responsive layouts will definitely never be implemented, so you don't need to hold your breath for that. What else were you concerned about?
Well for example today I changed a 92 figure to 100 without really knowing what I was doing or where the 92 came from in the first place. Will I have to change it again after a future upgrade?
And in order to get my images to 100%, I now have to set a figure of -99.90% . That hardly seems a long-term solution? At some stage -99.9% will surely mean exactly that? And if negative, a flipped image?
Many thanks for the conversion script, by the way.
Before going any further, I'm going to experiment a bit more with vector SVG images, as Simon suggested. They are scaling nicely without going fuzzy, so may be the logical answer for responsive pages.
regards,
Martin.
- Tim Green
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Re: Non-Responsive V3 skins?
Hi Martin,
There's nothing mysterious about that. This is the same base font size that you set together with Ems in the HTML Export Options in your project. However, in these skins that setting is actually in the skin (where you normally can't set it). It was necessary to do this because Ems (which are now actually set as Rems) are an absolute requirement for responsive layouts and we didn't want to display an error message every time you published a project with some other setting. Toolbox lets you access it there so that you can adjust it, but DON'T try to turn off Ems/Rems, even though you can, as that would stop the scaling working properly. Toolbox also lets you add a lot of other settings that you wouldn't normally be able to use in a skin -- although you should do this with care.
Martin Wynne wrote:Well for example today I changed a 92 figure to 100 without really knowing what I was doing or where the 92 came from in the first place. Will I have to change it again after a future upgrade?
There's nothing mysterious about that. This is the same base font size that you set together with Ems in the HTML Export Options in your project. However, in these skins that setting is actually in the skin (where you normally can't set it). It was necessary to do this because Ems (which are now actually set as Rems) are an absolute requirement for responsive layouts and we didn't want to display an error message every time you published a project with some other setting. Toolbox lets you access it there so that you can adjust it, but DON'T try to turn off Ems/Rems, even though you can, as that would stop the scaling working properly. Toolbox also lets you add a lot of other settings that you wouldn't normally be able to use in a skin -- although you should do this with care.
That is permanent. It's simply a background trigger value used to indicate the responsive setting. Help & Manual simply interprets the minus sign and anything lower than 100% as the responsive setting, and the 99.9% is interpreted as 100%. It was a simple way of getting the added settings without completely changing the entire existing structures.And in order to get my images to 100%, I now have to set a figure of -99.90% . That hardly seems a long-term solution? At some stage -99.9% will surely mean exactly that? And if negative, a flipped image?
Regards,
Tim (EC Software Documentation & User Support)
Private support:
Please do not email or PM me with private support requests -- post to the forum directly.
Tim (EC Software Documentation & User Support)
Private support:
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- Martin Wynne
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Re: Non-Responsive V3 skins?
Thanks Tim, although I still don't understand why it started off at 92 instead of 100.Tim Green wrote:Toolbox lets you access it there so that you can adjust it, but DON'T try to turn off Ems/Rems, even though you can, as that would stop the scaling working properly.
I don't know how to tell you this, but I HAVE in effect turned off rems. If you do that in the V3 skin setting, the compiler refuses to work, as you know. Instead of that I have inserted the PX style settings from the old PP1 default.css file as a <style> block at the end of the page template. This over-rides the rems settings.
The result is I have back all my original font sizes and paragraph styles and spacings. This gets me what I wanted, the V3 functionality without the responsive auto-sizing. It means any future style changes will have to be made in the page template, which is not so convenient but not difficult -- your toolbox uses Notepad++ just great and instantly auto-saves the settings.
But this is just me -- other users don't do this unless you know what you are doing.
p.s. I can't be the only user writing Help for CAD-style graphics showing engineering drawings, electronic circuit diagrams, etc. How can you describe using a cross-hairs cursor to take precision measurements if 1-pixel thin black lines in the diagram get resampled as fuzzy grey lines? It's intolerable, and I'm just not prepared to accept it. Of course the end user can zoom it up or down if they wish, but that way they understand why it has gone fuzzy, and it is their choice. SVG is great for diagrams only, but not if they are part of a screenshot. Or at least, I'm still working on that. Bitmaps in EMF/SVG produce massive file sizes. And it would mean re-doing a lot of existing images.
regards,
Martin.
- Tim Green
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Re: Non-Responsive V3 skins?
Martin Wynne wrote:Thanks Tim, although I still don't understand why it started off at 92 instead of 100.
Because in most browsers that would be closer to the initial sizing of the font as displayed in the HM editor than 100%.
You're free to do that, of course, but you're definitely on your own with it if you do.I don't know how to tell you this, but I HAVE in effect turned off rems.
That is actually not needed any more. It was originally in there because I originally wanted to require users to set it in their projects. Since it's an experts-only setting in the skin now I'll remove that in the next update.If you do that in the V3 skin setting, the compiler refuses to work, as you know.
The whole area of responsive design is still in flux. We are probably going to need some new image scaling options for this down the road (part of the problem is the fact that only some computers currently have high-resolution screens where all this becomes less of an issue). For example, the responsive image settings will now get the full original image in WebHelp with browser-based scaling, in the same way as in PDF. So if you insert an image that is significantly larger than you need, you should get good quality in modern browsers in all scaling smaller than the native size. At the moment, however, this also means that it will also continue to expand up to its native size when the browser window becomes larger, and if you use a much larger image the native size will be very large. And you probably don't want that...How can you describe using a cross-hairs cursor to take precision measurements if 1-pixel thin black lines in the diagram get resampled as fuzzy grey lines?
Regards,
Tim (EC Software Documentation & User Support)
Private support:
Please do not email or PM me with private support requests -- post to the forum directly.
Tim (EC Software Documentation & User Support)
Private support:
Please do not email or PM me with private support requests -- post to the forum directly.