Toggle arrow icons back to front?

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Martin Wynne
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Toggle arrow icons back to front?

Unread post by Martin Wynne »

Am I alone (as they say in the letters pages) in thinking that the arrow icons on toggles are the wrong way round?

In a conventional Windows drop-down control, a down-arrow indicates that more content is available, and that clicking it will expand that content below the arrow.

I have swapped over hmtoggle_arrow0.gif and hmtoggle_arrow1.gif via the Baggage files, and the result looks and feels much more intuitive to me.

However, Windows File Explorer is equally back-to-front so I'm clearly confused. Is a clickable icon intended to show what will happen if you click it, or the current state of play? :?

Martin.
Tonea Morrow
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Re: Toggle arrow icons back to front?

Unread post by Tonea Morrow »

Your question is exactly why I don't like the arrows. I prefer something that is a clearer icon, showing open/closed, such as open book vs. closed book, open box vs. closed box, furled flag vs. open flag, etc. I think some additional icons would be nice. Maybe light switch up for rolled up, light switch down for rolled down. Power icons, for up/down. etc.

Arrow points at the line if the information is rolled up. It points down if rolled down. In such a case, it shows current state. However, + shows more is available and - shows no more is available. Thus, + shows what will happen, not current state, though both can be argued.

Just my opinion.

Tonea Morrow
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Martin Wynne
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Re: Toggle arrow icons back to front?

Unread post by Martin Wynne »

Thanks Tonea.

That's what is so confusing. The plus/minus icons (as in the H&M CHM help) clearly show what will happen if clicked. The toggle arrows, and book icons (as in https://helpandmanual.com/help/) show what has happened.

The GUI experts must have a ruling on this? For me, the only sensible use of a clickable icon is to show you what will happen if it you click it. Perhaps if it shows the current state, it should not be clickable?

Martin.
Tonea Morrow
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Re: Toggle arrow icons back to front?

Unread post by Tonea Morrow »

Just for clarity (and a little teasing), If an icon to the left of text is not clickable, then it is a bullet.

I agree that the icon should convey that something will happen when it is selected.

Tonea Morrow
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Tim Green
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Re: Toggle arrow icons back to front?

Unread post by Tim Green »

I actually find both equally intuitive -- you are just in a different context with each one. They are different approaches to navigation, both equally valid, and as far as I can see they have become established in a way that makes them equally well understood. A folder doesn't tell you what to do: You look at it and know what state it is currently in. An arrow or a plus/minus symbol doesn't give you the same information about current state; it is more a symbol that tells you what to do.

However, as someone who is tri-lingual (English, German and Greek) I've also spent my life being very comfortable with switching my entire perspective in different language situations. Perhaps that has something to do with the fact that I don't see a conflict between different navigation paradigms like this.
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Tonea Morrow
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Re: Toggle arrow icons back to front?

Unread post by Tonea Morrow »

I think the problem comes in with lack of clarity. On my phone, web page triangles work in reverse to the way I see them work on my computer. This drives me up the walls. (Maybe it is just wiki's that do it.--I read video game wiki's on my phone.)

If something shows the state clearly and consistently (say open book for opened), then you know that selecting it will change the state. In that way a state graphic will also work as a will-happen graphic. Plus and minus can be argued to show both state and what will happen because established users understand what is meant by + and -. However, new users, such as the disenfranchised adult who gains computer access, may not find computer culture so easy to understand. That's why I prefer real-world symbols.

Tim's right though, the wider your experience, the more adaptable you are.

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Tim Green
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Re: Toggle arrow icons back to front?

Unread post by Tim Green »

If there's a possibility that they could be misunderstood it's probably best to use folder icons, which are always clear. The +/- icons are also pretty unequivocal, I think. However, I would agree that arrow icons should probably be avoided because of the frequency in which they are used in different contexts.
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