Indexing conundrum - child citations across several topics

Please post all questions on Help+Manual 8 here

Moderators: Alexander Halser, Tim Green

Post Reply
Dave Gehman
Posts: 575
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:05 pm

Indexing conundrum - child citations across several topics

Unread post by Dave Gehman »

The Index Tool is great for sorting out master and child index entries when a given set of terms exist in a single help topic:
Image

But I'm at a loss as to how to place a subordinate (child) index entry when it appears in several different topics.

Let's say that InvName in the topic above also appears in 4 other topics. Is there a means of automation whereby I can populate the index -- or do I have to go to each of those topics and make sure there's a suitable master entry under which I can make InvName a child entry?
Tim Frost
Posts: 319
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:45 pm

Re: Indexing conundrum - child citations across several topics

Unread post by Tim Frost »

If you think that your readers are going to want to search for InvName, you should surely make it a headword in the index, inverting its headwords beneath it; as well as actually repeating it under all the other three headwords (which yes, it seems you would also want to do).

I find in our index that quite a number of "a"/"b" pairs also need to be indexed as "b"/"in a".
Dave Gehman
Posts: 575
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:05 pm

Re: Indexing conundrum - child citations across several topics

Unread post by Dave Gehman »

Thanks, Tim, and thanks for the added details -- yes, we'll need to have the "b" / "in a"

I gather there's no automated way to do this... in fact, I doubt that I could come up with even a macro that would do any real automation.
Tim Frost
Posts: 319
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:45 pm

Re: Indexing conundrum - child citations across several topics

Unread post by Tim Frost »

I am sure that indexing will be one of the last professions to be affected by automation!
https://www.indexers.org.uk/about-index ... ublishing/
Simon_Dismore
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:57 pm

Re: Indexing conundrum - child citations across several topics

Unread post by Simon_Dismore »

Tim Frost wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:34 pm I am sure that indexing will be one of the last professions to be affected by automation!
Nice to see the Society of Indexers getting a mention here, I did a session with them a few centuries ago and was very impressed.

Indexing for the least structured material, e.g. a political autobiography, will almost always need a skilled human indexer. But I'm sure indexing technical documentation could be automated via machine learning. The problem is not so much how to capture the connection as how to visualise it in a helpful way, not necessarily a tree. There are many ways to index concepts and our current technical documentation is only scratching a few percent into what is feasible. The same applies to other well structured areas, e.g. scientific research, legal precedent, technical requirements etc.

Arguably one of those areas will reveal a breakthrough model of how people understand processes and systems, with the consequence that we design them differently, and document them orders of magnitude better than today.
Dave Gehman
Posts: 575
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:05 pm

Re: Indexing conundrum - child citations across several topics

Unread post by Dave Gehman »

Simon_Dismore wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:19 am The problem is not so much how to capture the connection as how to visualise it in a helpful way, not necessarily a tree. There are many ways to index concepts and our current technical documentation is only scratching a few percent into what is feasible....

Arguably one of those areas will reveal a breakthrough model of how people understand processes and systems, with the consequence that we design them differently, and document them orders of magnitude better than today.
Having devoured Richard Saul Wurman's Information Architects many years ago, I'm ready for the breakthrough, just not capable enough to formulate it myself. If you haven't seen that book, do a search on his name + information architects. The image tab will give you a visual smattering of the many approaches he introduced in the book.

Kartoo adopted some of his ideas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartoo#/m ... Kartoo.png
User avatar
Tim Green
Site Admin
Posts: 23157
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:11 am
Location: Bruehl, Germany
Contact:

Re: Indexing conundrum - child citations across several topics

Unread post by Tim Green »

Hi Dave,

You can easily add sub-keywords to multiple topics with the Index tool:

ChildKeywords.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Regards,
Tim (EC Software Documentation & User Support)

Private support:
Please do not email or PM me with private support requests -- post to the forum directly.
Dave Gehman
Posts: 575
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:05 pm

Re: Indexing conundrum - child citations across several topics

Unread post by Dave Gehman »

Thanks. I had looked at this but opted not to use it. I will now that I see its usefulness in this case. I am world's worst mouse operator, so I prefer operations with keyboard shortcuts. After playing with this, I see that I can get the process along mostly by keyboarding, all except activating the "+" icon in the Index Tool's toolbar.

I am wondering why the "+" icon, when moused, drops down to two add-keyword options (master and child) when the resulting dialog has radio buttons for master and child. It's two mouse clicks to get where I want... and I really do avoid un-handing the keyboard and (mis-)directing my mouse whenever possible.

Might clicking on + just take you right to the dialog? Or do we need the drop-down because the "Child of:" field is automatically populated by whatever is highlighted in the Index Tool--in other words, because helpful things are going on in the background?
User avatar
Tim Green
Site Admin
Posts: 23157
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:11 am
Location: Bruehl, Germany
Contact:

Re: Indexing conundrum - child citations across several topics

Unread post by Tim Green »

The + icon menu automatically selects the appropriate radio button corresponding to the selected menu item. You can also only select a child item when an index entry is actually selected in the index list.

Help+Manual is really a GUI program so it does prioritize mouse operation for GUI items. I'm afraid I can't say much more than that myself (I'm not directly involved in the GUI design) as I almost never use the keyboard in GUI programs myself, except for things like copy/paste and the style shortcuts I've managed to remember. However, I can understand how it would be useful if you can be bothered to memorize a lot of shortcuts (which I can't...) :)
Regards,
Tim (EC Software Documentation & User Support)

Private support:
Please do not email or PM me with private support requests -- post to the forum directly.
Dave Gehman
Posts: 575
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:05 pm

Re: Indexing conundrum - child citations across several topics

Unread post by Dave Gehman »

Thanks. Maybe some day I'll have a brace of touchscreen monitors...
Post Reply